Archive-name: sports/disc-faq/part4 Rec-sport-disc-archive-name: faq-part4 Last-modified: 1996/01/29 Posting-Frequency: monthly
* Indicates new or vastly revised questions
a) Nike Sharks, etc.
Phillip N Price
I favor shoes that have cleats all the way at the edges. The
edge cleats are generally rectangular in cross-section, perhaps
with some odd-shaped protruberances. Inner cleats may be round,
triangular, or other, depending on brand.
Of this latter type, the premier example used to be Nike Sharks.
Available in high, mid, and low-tops, these were the shoe of
choice among Ultimate players when I started playing in the
mid 1980's. Unfortunately, the method of joining sole to upper
was changed around 1990 or 1991, and the new method is not nearly
as reliable---I, and most of my Sharks-wearing friends, were
plagued by "blow-outs" (separation of sole and upper at points
of high stress), and I no longer wear Sharks. [Also, they've gotten
much more expensive than they used to be.]
After trying several types of Sharks-type shoes, I've settled on
Reebok Pit Bulls as a replacement. These are very similar to
the original Nike Sharks, are relatively inexpensive, and are
fairly durable.
Thomas Griesbaum writes:
The Land Shark model was really durable: stitches would last and most
important the cleats would not break. Some time later the Boss Shark
was introduced (with a red/black sole). With most shoes exposed cleats
(depending on your running style) would break and I also saw problems
with stitches and even other parts of the shoe tearing.
Maurice Cinquini writes:
Beware, in my opinion, use of sharks and other shoes with extra grip and
large leverage on ankles contribute to the large number of knee and ankle
injuries we have in the sport. The other major factor is the `cuts'
players are encouraged to do. New players especially, have not had the
time to strenghen the muscles to support these joints
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1993 12:27:31 -0500
On 08-Mar-93 in Re: Ultimate Footware
user hinkamp@cc.usu.edu writes:
[Replying to the above:]
Oy vey! After a year of foot cramps, blisters and shin splints caused
by (some fairly expensive) soccer cleats, I finally found podiatric
bliss in Nike SHARKS and you want to take them away?!? My girlfriend
has said I have, and this is a direct quote "the feet of a beast" (I
won't mention what she thinks of my table manners). She's right,
though. They're flat as boards. Almost splayed. They are
architecturally unsound. Those big, wide SHARKS are the most
comfortable shoes I can find to play in.
Seriously, I haven't found them to be more or less dangerous than other
shoes. It's FEET that do the stomping, not shoes. Molded soccer cleats
can hurt a hell of a lot if they stomp on your foot, and I would argue
that the cleats on the SHARK are a little softer and less harmful than
on many soccer shoes.
Dennis mentions that soccer leagues limit toe cleats, and I think that
there's a good reason for that, but it doesn't apply to ultimate.
Soccer players use their feet to kick, as well as run. That's why so
many of them wear shin guards. On the soccer field, a toe cleat IS a
potentially dangerous weapon. Not so in ultimate. The only comparable
action I can think of in ultimate is the footblock, and this is a
dubious example, at best. Everyone in soccer kicks. RELATIVELY few of
us footblock. In soccer, players often try to kick into the same space
at the same time (at a moving target, no less) The potential for an
accidental kick is very great. As we all know, in ultimate, optimally,
this should not happen with foot and hand. A legal (and effective)
footblock should never occupy the thrower's hand space, but a space
about a foot (no pun intended, I mean twelve inches) upfield. We all
know that this doesn't always happen, but the footblock debate is
apparently one that doesn't need to be revived. In the latest survey
report, the newsletter indicated that 85% of respondents favor keeping
the footblock legal. The upthrust of all this is simply that I don't
think the soccer ban on toe cleats is all that relevant when applied to
our sport.
Of course no one would favor metal cleats, and if you're gonna have
screw-ins, the screw has to be in the cleat, not coming out of the shoe
(so as not to leave a deadly spikey protrusion coming from the sole in
the event of cleat loss), but aside from that, I suggest, with all due
respect to my fellow disc players who disagree, that the shoe situation
is fine as it now "stands."
Matt Weiss, Mr. Yuk & Smoked Gouda
b) A Survey
From: drewsxpa@salem.intel.com (Paul Drews)
The replies to my "shoes for ultimate" survey seem to have trickled to
a halt. Here is the summary I promised. I didn't receive enough
replies to justify drawing hard conclusions. In addition, I
unfortunately slanted the original article toward a particular brand
and model of shoe, which may have colored the results of the survey.
The following chart is an attempt to summarize all of the positive and
negative comments at a glance. A notation such as "+n" indicates that
n people found these shoes to be desirable in this characteristic,
"-n" indicates that n people didn't like it. I included trimmed down
copies of the original posts, because shoe analysis seems to be a
subjective thing, and this should help people interpret the results.
[...] I can identify a brand name that produced some shoes similar to
what you described. I bought some out of curiosity last fall and
loved them except for one caveat. If the ground is the least bit wet
they muck up very quickly and feel like lead boots. I'd recommend
carrying different shoes (like Sharks or soccer shoes) in the case
that the ground is wet. The shoe I got is a Converse (Hi-top model).
=====================
Before my ankles finished falling off, I bought Nike (Land) Sharks,
vintage 1990. They were a problem for me because (i) the toe is too
pointed, making a hard cut a somewhat Procrustean experience (but most
people don't have this problem); and (ii) the lugs were too soft, and
in a year (playing 3-5 hrs/wk.) I had snapped off four or five of the
big ones.
When the problem became too serious to ignore (no lugs on medial right
heel), I threw 'em out and bought Pony Blasters. I liked these better
than the Sharks, as they fit my feet well and the lugs were stronger
(and well-placed); however, they didn't have much padding.
Eventually the Ponies wore out and I bought (on clearance) a pair of
Converse Starforce hightops. The grip is good (but the fields I play
on are now so hard that it hasn't been tested well); however, after
about 10 hours of use the leather has split on the medial left heel,
which bodes ill for their longevity.
========================
I haven't tried a football cleat but I can't imagine anything working
better than the Stratos Drive. Oh yeah, I almost forgot one small
point in all my rambling. The Stratos Drive give me a significant
jump. Because there are only 4 studs in front, I get excellent grip
on quick accelerations. I was immediately able to get a great jump on
even our fastest players after getting these cleats. But you probably
should have strong ankles if you get these because they are a little
hard to get used to.
=====================
=====================
Compared to Sharks, the Slams have better traction and seem to be
tougher, but the Sharks give better support and work a little better
in the mud. If you are going to use either Sharks or Slams and you
play in the mud then it's a good idea to get some standard soccer type
cleats for mud and use the other pair in dryer conditions.
I know a number of people at Nike including several who play Ultimate.
I was talking to one of their R&D people (who plays Ultimate) last
week. He says that Nike considers Ultimate to be a "closet sport" and
as such they don't do any R&D for it. Nike doesn't make any shoes
that are ideal for Ultimate but Sharks are probably the best overall
match to our sport out of their line.
I've only had one pair of cleats that weren't made by Nike. They were
made by Converse but I can't find a model name or number on them.
I've only worn them twice. The back of the heel has a hard plastic
piece inside it and it isn't the same shape as the back of my heel.
[...]
=====================
======================
======================
Last year I had a pair of Umbro cleats (molded); I loved them, but as
one of the earlier posts mentioned, they changed them this year, and
they seem a little narrower, especially at the toe. Still, they're
pretty comfortable. I played with a pair of Patrick molded cleats
this spring, and found them quite good, but I'll switch to the Umbros
for summer, as the cleats are shorter, and we play on a lot of dry,
hard fields.
I have found one particular mail order company to be pretty darn good.
Their catalog is very nice. The offer a wide variety of soccer
cleats(sorry no Nike-Sharks) and a veritble plethera of other soccer
stuff(shorts, shirts, extra shoelaces, etc.) The prices are a little
on the high side but the best part is the offer overnight delivery for
only $2.00 above the normal shipping costs.
The also offer a passback program. If you have cleats that you no longer
use ,but are still usable then you can return them tand get a $5.00 credit
on your next cleat order. The cleat you returned will then be given
to poor kids all around the world(mainly for soccer).
The name and phone number of this company is
I am not a representative of this company just an Ultimate player who
likes their service. Just give them a call to get the catalog and check
through it.
Iron "62 mph" Mike
I've worn Adidas soccer shoes for many years and have been happy with
them. However, a year ago I had to give up the inexpensive kind that
are mainly nylon with only a little bit of leather at crucial wear points
and switch to the all leather kind that cost four times as much.
The reason was that as I played harder, the force of my foot shifting
in the shoe caused too much force on the nylon, and that stress had
to be absorbed by the outside "knuckle" of my big toes. This led to
painful bunions that were immediately alleviated by the leather shoes
that absorb more stress and distribute it more evenly over the foot.
I've always worn low-top shoes, but it took about 3 years of playing
before my ankles got strong enough to get through a game without
swelling up afterwards.
Hilarie Orman, ho@cs.arizona.edu
[ NOTE: The information contained herein is ONLY a guide, and not
to be taken as authoritative. No one should ever accept
any medical advice from the network except at their own
risk. Before dealing with any non-trivial injury,
playing while in pain or injured, or starting regular
treatment for an injury, a qualified doctor, preferably
one specializing in sports medicine, should be consulted. ]
a) Pain and Painkillers
At one time or another, people on the net have been posting
discussions about pain - playing in pain, dealing with pain,
playing while doped on various drugs, legal and otherwise, etc.
A few notes, gathered from various doctors and experienced
Ultimate players who deal with doctors:
These remarks, people note, are often ignored by people who play
professional sports. Please keep in mind, though, that the
people who play professional sports usually have multiple,
professionally trained individuals administering these drugs and
monitoring the condition of the atheletes. Also keep in mind
that these people are being often being paid considerable sums
of money to play these sports...not something Ultimate is well
known for.
Other players have indicated that they regularly play after
taking aspirin or ibuprofen. These drugs are noted for general
anti-inflammatory benefit, but one should contact a doctor before
starting a regular regemin of drug treatment, not only to avoid
possible bad side-effects, but also in case a better treatment
program is available.
A last thought...there's usually only a few games a year where
it's REALLY worth playing through severe pain. Most people are
better off missing a few practices due to some sort of injury
than risking it all for the sake of an extra week of practice.
However, everybody has to judge for themselves how bad an injury
really is and what it's worth to you and your team to stay on the
field.
b) General Injuries
People who play Ultimate see plenty of injuries. The general
treatment for just about any sprain, strain, muscle tear, etc, is
RICE, which stands for Rest - Ice - Compression - Elevation.
First, get off the injury. Then, 15-20 minutes of ice in an ice
bag, wrapped around the injury, while elevating the injury above
the level of the heard. If the injury seems exceptionally
severe, the best thing to do is see a professional about it.
For injuries which are a result of the chronic wear and tear that
Ultimate can give to the body, a general ice-massage is a good
idea after practice and games. As a matter of fact, old and new
injuries alike feel much better if ice is applied shortly after
the conclusion of the workout, not to mention controlling
swelling. An excellent way to make ice-cubes is to purchase some
paper cups, fill them about three-quarters full of water, freeze,
and then to peel the paper down from the top. This way, you have
something to hold on with your hands, and you can massage the
injury directly with the ice, probably the best way to apply ice.
Be careful of frostburn if applying the ice directly to the skin.
Seeing a doctor who specializes in sports for any serious injury
is highly recommended...it's amazing what a special stretch,
brace, or tape-job can do for an injury which otherwise ruins
your playing enjoyment, especially with respect to those nagging
injuries which seem to never go away. And it's never too late -
if you sprain and ankle and find that it's still not quite where
it should be two or three weeks later, a good sports-therapist
can offer invaluable advice towards rehabilitation of the
affected member.
One reason some Ultimate players tend to avoid the doctor is
their afraid the doctor will tell them to stop playing Ultimate,
which we all agree is a Bad Thing. Fortunately, many doctors who
specialize in sports-medicine don't like people to stop what
they're doing, except for a short period of time to let things
heal. Clearly, a sprained ankle or strained shoulder needs a few
days to start the healing process, but after that, it's often
possible to resume playing (carefully) with some medical
assistance.
c) Tape and Braces
Lots of times, people will beg, borrow, or steal the brace of a
fellow Ultimate player, or ask a friend to "tape them up" when
they're really don't quite know how to do it.
As with using painkillers on a regular basis, it's a good idea to
see a professional before starting to strap a brace on all the
time. Sometimes the cause of pain isn't what it seems...and a
brace can help or * hurt * the problem. The same is true for a
tape-job. It can make all the difference in the world to an
injured body part, but the wrong taping job can really screw a
joint up.
Learning to tape yourself isn't too hard though, since you'll
probably get tired of going to somebody for help all the time.
If you need the same type of taping job regularly (as is usually
the case) ask somebody who knows how to do it to teach you and a
couple of your teammates, practice, practice, practices, and then
start taping yourself. After all, you're the best one to know
when it's too tight and when it feels right.
If you really mess up your knee and have a serious brace prescribed,
make sure you select as good an apparatus as your circumstances
permit. Take time to look over what is available, talk to other
players with similar injuries. A well-fitted, lightweight brace
will not interfere with a high level of play.
d) Shin Splints
A fairly common injury that shouldn't be allowed to ruin your
play. Shin splints are usually the result of a lot of pounding
on feet from continual running, jumping, and other types of
Ultimate activity. The causes can be traced back to lots of
things, including the type of cleat, running surface, running
style, proper muscle balance, and lack of proper stretching.
They usually occur in people who radically change their workout
schedule over a short period of time; ie, suddenly playing
Ultimate every day after several months (years?) of inactivity.
Once you get them, they often return, so people who get shin
splints need to take certain preventative measures to strengthen
the area and minimize the possibility of recurrence. This includes
stretching and exercising the muscles in the front and back of
the lower leg.
One easy exercise is to stand in front of a wall or bookcase or
something you can hold on to for balance. Without shoes on,
alternate pulling the balls of your feet up off the floor until
you can't do it anymore. You should feel it working the muscles
next to your shins. Another exercise you can do at home is calf
raises. Start doing them with your feet flat on the floor, then
work up to doing them with your heels hanging over a step. Do
them slowly! Stretch before and after!
A good stretch is call the "alphabet stretch". Simply sit down,
cross one leg over the other so that your ankle can move, and
then, as if your big toe was the point of a pencil, make the
shape of each letter of the alphabet, making sure to stretch the
muscles and tendons by making your lines big. Don't make tiny
letters; take your time and make your penmanship teacher proud.
To help them go away quickly, reduce the amount of pounding on
the lower legs (ie, running and Ultimate) and increase the amount
stretching and strengthening. And, as always, ice is nice, along
with aspirin or other painkiller (in moderation).
A last note...if your symptoms persist or worsen, it's possible
that you don't have shin splints, but have a stress-fracture or
other injury instead. See a doctor, who will probably be able to
help with special exercises, stretches, or orthotics.
e) Sprained Ankles
Another common injury which seems to befall Ultimate players, who
often have to run on uneven fields. As with any other injury,
it's best to ice the area completely immediately after the
injury. Severe sprains can result in several days or weeks
without being able to run on the ankle, so extreme care should be
taken to make sure the joint heals. Once a severe sprain has
occurred, the joint will probably be vulnerable thereafter.
As part of the rehabilitation, support for the joint MUST be
provided, in the form of a brace, tape, or other support, for a
few months at least. Any serious sprain should be taken to a
qualified doctor to make sure the injury will heal without
medical intervention. The fact is that the tissue damaged in the
ankle takes up to a year to grow back to full strength, if it
ever does. If you consult a sports therapist during this time,
he or she will give you some special exercises to build up the
ankle, which will also help prevent further injury.
f) Knee Injuries, the Anterior Cruciate Ligament (ACL)
Those who injure their ACL's are advised to contact a physician
for advice. A sudden, severe pain deep in the knee followed by
generalized swelling to the lower leg lasting several days may
indicate tearing of the ACL. Ultimate players can spend hours
discussing their arthroscopic or reconstructive surgeries and
subsequent physical therapy. There is an ACL web page:
g) Pregnancy
The recommendations from the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology
re exercise during pregnancy are available in:
Women are strongly encouraged to consult their health care provider for
more information and recommendations.
This is part four of the rec.sport.disc FAQ [Frequently Asked
Questions list]. This file, and its companion files, are posted
bi-weekly to rec.sport.disc, news.answers and rec.answers. The posting
is designed to answer questions which are commonly asked by new
readers of the group, as well as to provide a reliable source of
information for regular readers.
From: "Matthew S. Weiss"
Subject: Re: Ultimate Footware
Since I'd like to see some discussion on the topic, I'll post
this. I think soccer shoes are the perfect shoes for ultimate.
Infact I'd like to see the UPA limit legal footwear to
molded type soccer cleats. Soccer leagues limit toe cleats
for the same reason the UPA should, they are a hazard to players.
Some of the football and "shark" spikes woren by players now are
a hazard in close play (i.e. stepping on and kicking people).
my only problem with soccer cleats is that I have not found a good
high top pair.
Subject: Shoes for ultimate survey summary
Summary: Results of survey of Ultimate shoes
Date: 1 Jun 92 19:32:20 GMT
Shoe traction traction clogging padding misc durability
name hard mud mud comfort
------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ----------
Nike Land Shark
-1 -1 -2
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Nike Grid Shark
-1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Nike Air Shark +1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Converse Hi-top ?? -1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick soccer cleats -1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Pony Blaster -1 +1 +1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Converse Starforce Hi-top
+1 -1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Adidas Stratos Drive
+1 +1 +1 +1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Nike Air Slam
+1 -1 -1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Converse ?? -1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Spot Bilt turf shoe
+2 -1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Umbro cleats
+1 +1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Specific replies follow:
My first cleats were Patrick soccer cleats. 'nuff said. :-(.
[...] I will tell you what type of shoes I wear. I bought a pair of
Adidas Stratos Drive at the beginning of this year and they are great.
They have long studs, which are recommended for soft ground, but I
think that is because they are soccer cleats and soccer players must
kick that ball. I haven't had any trouble with traction and actually
find that I get better traction than with any other cleat I have worn.
The cleats have only six studs, two in back and four in front. All
the cleats I have worn in the past have had something like 10 or 12.
The six studs really don't pick up any mud, and therefore don't bog
down in mud. They are also hard plastic, so they "dig in" in hard
ground. They are by far the best cleat I have ever worn. I ran into
a problem with my other cleats of wearing out after only one year or
so, but these are showing absolutely no sign of wear. They also have
removable studs, so that you can put in shorter ones if you like or
replace the ones in there. They cost around $65, but I think they are
an excellent deal.
[Ed note: I stopped in at the Nike store in downtown Portland, Oregon
(Nike is based in the Portland area). A sales clerk told me that the
Nike Land Shark was no longer made. It is possible that between
between me and the clerk some information was garbled, but this agrees
with what I heard in local shoe stores. I have been trying several
times a day to call Nike's Consumer Information Center
(1-800-344-NIKE) to check out this report and track down some Nike
Land Sharks, but the phone is always busy. They must be swamped with
customers clamoring for the old Land Sharks :-)]
The most common shoes on the Portland team are probably Nike Air
Slams. They are actually softball shoes but they have better traction
than anything else that we have tried. The cleats are hard plastic --
they have a lot of "bite" to them but they clog easily in mud.
Unfortunately softball is not exactly a high intensity sport so Slams
don't have much foot, arch or ankle support. I know two people who
have gone back to Sharks because they got tired of having their feet
hurt all the time. Blake Garnard (who plays for Rhino Slam) wears
Sharks most of the time and only puts his Slams on for semis and
finals! I've never had any pair of cleats last me more than about a
year, but the Slams have been pretty tough.
[A reply to the above:]
The type of earth you play on can make a difference as well. I've
never played on the west coast, but in Florida and North Carolina the
dirt is very sandy and has a lot more give to it than the topsoil of
the Midwest. It can make a difference in the ideal shoe (I use Air
Sharks, BTW, and am quite happy with them - bought them about six
months ago and they're holding up fine)
I just got a new pair of Nike Shark high tops this week. (btw I have
not found *any* source of high top shoes in Manitoba - had to get
these brought in from New York). They are indeed too hard and slip on
the hard ground here. My favorite Ultimate shoe for dry ground is a
Spot Bilt turf shoe (no high top available unfortunately), I don't
know the exact model name. this shoe is great for hard ground or good
grass, but the small cleats hold too much mud when its really wet.
[A reply to the above:]
Amen! These were/are my favorite ultimate shoes I ever had. But I
don't think they exist anymore -- no shoe salesperson here in
SillyPutty Valley could locate them. If anyone has any source for
these, I'd *love* to know where to get some.
From: Michael Tor Klawansky
c) Shoes and Bunions
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 16:50:51 -0400
Eurosport
1-800-934-3876
2) Gloves
The following information was gleaned by Sasha Clayton
(sclayto1@swarthmore.edu) from newsgroup discussions during January 1996.
3) Visit the Ultimate Doctor
http://www.math.ufl.edu/~sfm/ACL/acl.html
and for general medical information about the knee, the following URL's
may be of interest:
Drawing of the knee:
http://www.os.qub.ac.uk:80/whatis/fig3.html
Medical info re knee surgery:
http://www.os.qub.ac.uk:80/whatis/#surgery
Sports Illustrated diagram, male vs. female knee conformity:
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~dubois/df/si-knees.gif
ftp://ftp.hacks.arizona.edu/pub/ultimate/articles/exercise-during-pregnancy
a) FAQ information and administrative swill
